LICENSING SUB COMMITTEE 20TH SEPTEMBER 2005 Minutes of the meeting of the Licensing Sub Committee of Flintshire County Council held on Tuesday, 20th September, 2005 in County Hall, Mold, Flintshire. PRESENT: Councillor L.A. Sharps (Chairman) Councillors J.F. Jones and P.J. Walkden. OFFICERS OF FLINTSHIRE COUNTY COUNCIL Assistant County Secretary, Licensing Manager and Principal Administration Officer. RESPONSIBLE AUTHORITIES / REPRESENTATIVES Sgt. Colin Jones - North Wales Police APPLICANT/ AGENTS Messrs. A. Honeyman, Spirit Group, J.G. Coen Solicitor for Spirit Group. 1. DECLARATIONS OF INTEREST There were no declarations of interest. 2. REPORT OF THE DIRECTOR OF ENVIRONMENT AND REGENERATION The Sub Committee considered the report of the Director of Environment & Regeneration which was presented by the Licensing Manager in respect of an application for a premises licence for The Custom House Hotel, Connah’s Quay. 3. THE APPLICATION - Custom House, Connah’s Quay. The application was made for a Premises Licence (conversation and variation) by Spirit Group Limited. The premises currently operated to the standard hours of Monday to Saturday 11:00 am to 11:00 pm and noon to 10:30 pm on Sundays. There was a public entertainment licence in force which permitted music, singing and dancing from 11:00 am to 11:30 pm on Monday to Saturday plus noon to 3:30 pm and 7.00 pm to 11:00 pm on a Sunday. The hours proposed for sale of alcohol were:- Monday to Wednesday - 10:00 am to midnight Thursday - 10:00 am to 01:00 am the following morning Friday, Saturday, Sunday - 10:00 am to 02:00 am the following morning These hours would also apply to recorded music, live music and dancing. On Saints Days, Bank Holiday weekends (Thursday, Friday, Saturday & Sunday) and Christmas Eve these times would be extended by one hour. The proposed closing time was one hour after the alcohol supply hours outlined above. The licensee was Mr. Andrew Honeyman. 4. PROMOTION OF LICENSING OBJECTIVES The applicant’s proposals were attached as Appendix 1 to the report. 5. NOTICES AND SUPPORTING DOCUMENTATION Representations had been made by North Wales Police which related to Crime and Disorder and Public Nuisance Licensing Objectives and had been circulated as Appendix 2 to the report. An email had been received from a person living in the vicinity and this was attached as Appendix 3 to the report. 6. SUBMISSION OF DOCUMENTARY EVIDENCE / REQUEST TO CROSS EXAMINE The Chairman asked questions as determined in the procedure :- (a) The applicant confirmed that they had no additional information to submit (b) The representative of North Wales Police indicated that he had provided a summary of incidents of disorder which he felt were relevant to this application. It was confirmed that the applicant and Members of the Sub Committee had received a copy of this information (c) All parties requested the opportunity to cross examine if necessary 7. HEARING AND DETERMINATION OF THE APPLICATION The Chairman advised that the Sub Committee would proceed to hear and determine the application by reference to the four Licensing Objectives and that each party would be granted up to 20 minutes to speak. 8. FURTHER INFORMATION The Chairman asked the Licensing Officer to confirm whether or not there was anything further to add to the papers in front of the Sub-Committee. The Licensing Manager confirmed that the only additional papers were those referred to by the representative of North Wales Police. He confirmed that all notices had been served. 9. PRESENTATION BY THE APPLICANT In opening the presentation Mr. Coen on behalf of the applicant advised that the majority of the clientele were locals and on each day of the week there was a different age profile of persons using the premises and he detailed these for the Committee. The premises did not serve food and advised there was a quiz night on a Thursday with DJ music on a Friday, Saturday and Sunday with just background music on the other nights of the week. He indicated that all windows were secondary glazed and all entrances were lobbied entrances with internal doors to assist in keeping the noise within the premises. Mr. Coen advised that there had been communication on an issue with the Noise Pollution Section of the Environmental Health Department some months previously but there had been no further action since that time. It was the intention to provide entertainment in a trouble free manner, without nuisance to neighbours who had not complained. With regard to the comments of North Wales Police Mr. Coen commented upon the good communication arrangements between the Police and the licensee. He suggested that the incidents at the premises were sparse and sporadic and the premises were generally well run and the licensee had in fact been in the trade for some 9 years. He commented that in accordance with the Police submission there had been no trouble directly emanating from the premises since May 2005. He had also accepted the point regarding the reduction of drinking up time to 30 minutes in lieu of one hour. Mr. Coen suggested that the communication received from Mr. M. Sheldon should be discounted for the hearing for today since it was not a relevant representation within Section 18(6) of the Licensing Act 2003. However the Chairman was satisfied following legal advice that the email was a relevant representation which had been received within the appropriate time and should be considered as part of the evidence. 10. REPRESENTATIONS BY RESPONSIBLE AUTHORITIES i) NORTH WALES POLICE Sgt. Colin Jones reiterated the points contained in his letter dated 19th August 2005 regarding the extent of hours he felt that the premises should be allowed to open. He acknowledged that the applicant had agreed to the request for a reduction in the drinking up time from one hour to 30 minutes. He indicated that the supply of alcohol on Sunday to Thursday, inclusive, should end no later than Midnight and the premises should close no later than 00.30 hours. The supply of alcohol on Friday and Saturday should end no later than 00.30 hours with the premises closed no later than 01.00 hours. He indicated that other licensing activities should cease at the closing times quoted. Sgt. Jones also advised that if the Committee were minded to grant the extension that the following condition should also be included to reflect the fact that the area in question has required regular attention by the Police in respect of drinking offences, coupled with the fact that there are a number of residential premises in close proximity such that there is the potential for nuisance / disturbance when customers are leaving:- (i) CCTV to cover the entrance and licensed areas. Tapes / discs to be retained for no less than 28 days for viewing by Police if required in relation to enquiries (ii) Licensed door staff to be employed on Friday, Saturday and Sunday from no later than 08.30 pm until the premises are closed to the public. Sgt. Jones then expanded upon each of the incidents identified in his supplementary evidence. The applicant had advised Sgt. Jones prior to the meeting that they had been in discussion with the Local Inspector who had agreed a compromise with them regarding their proposed opening hours. However, Sgt. Jones indicated that he was not a party to those discussions and was unaware of them. He therefore left the hours sought to the Committee’s discretion in the light of incidents when the Police attended and the conditions to be attached to the Licence. 11. PROCEDURAL POINT AND CROSS-EXAMINATION Mr. Coen submitted that the supplementary evidence detailing incidents at the premises supplied by North Wales Police was not submitted within the relevant timeframe and should be disregarded. However, the Chairman indicated that he was prepared to accept the information as it was an embellishment of the information previously provided by North Wales Police within the relevant timeframe. Mr. Coen then proceeded to comment on each of the incidents identified by North Wales Police and submitted that not all of the incidents could be directly attributable to the licensed premises and those that were so attributable had been dealt with in an efficient manner by the applicant’s staff. At the request of Members of the Sub Committee Mr. Honeyman also gave an explanation of the incidents and how they had occurred and referred in particular to an incident on 31st July 2005 which he felt had emanated from another public house but carried on over into his premises. The Police had recommended closure of the premises and he arranged to do this immediately. Mr. Coen also indicated that door staff were employed on Friday, Saturday and Sundays already. Mr. Coen expanded that no matter how well the premises was run there was always a possibility of incidents occurring inside the premises. He submitted that the two incidents which he accepted emanated from within the premises should not be held against his client. He also enquired if Sgt. Jones had any comments about how the premises had been run since his client had been the licensee. He also explained in response to Police comments that CCTV was not necessarily a deterrent but Sgt. Jones accepted that on some occasions people who did cause problems were oblivious to their presence but reiterated that it was a good tool for evidence and it may encourage people to think twice before committing an offence. Mr. Coen indicated that the guidelines issued relating to the Licensing Act indicated that the thrust was to liberalise the licensing hours with a view to avoiding problems with a greater spread of hours for people to depart. Sgt. Jones indicated that when North Wales Police were making comments on such applications it was necessary to balance the intention of the Government and the interests of local residents. As part of this exercise it was necessary to look at the safety and crime issues and taking these into account he had made his comments and recommendations. Mr. Honeyman indicated that he had spoken to Inspector D. Jolie who visits the premises quite regularly for a chat with him and his door staff to see how things were going. Mr. Honeyman alleged that Inspector Jolie had indicated to him in a conversation that he would be prepared to compromise with the applicant on the opening hours and would be satisfied for him to extend on a Friday and Saturday until 02.00 am instead of 03.00 am. Again Sgt. Jones reiterated that he had not been party to these discussions. Councillor Walkden enquired how far away the Hare & Hounds Public House was which the applicant indicated had been the premises where trouble makers who had caused the problems at his premises had commenced drinking. The applicant suggested it was probably about half a mile away. He also responded to a comment on how long it took CCTV cameras to be repaired as it appeared they had not been working for some time. Mr. Honeyman indicated that the day they were faulty he reported it to the appropriate person. He also confirmed that door staff stopped known trouble makers from entering the premises. The Chairman, supported by other Members of the panel, expressed concern that a high level of fighting had occurred in one particular incident and was concerned for the peace and comfort of nearby residents. The Chairman also suggested it was possible that these residents were too frightened to attend the hearing to make representations in view of the violent nature of the incidents which occurred. Mr. Coen disagreed with the Chairman’s comments which related to local residents’ attendance and indicated that incidents which occurred on the streets were the responsibility of the Police. Seeking clarification the Chairman indicated that the licensee admitted to one fight occurring in his premises and in this respect the applicant indicated how good his door staff were in refusing entry to people who were drunk. Mr. Coen commented that in connection with the incidents identified by the Police there had not been a single conviction. However, it was noted that those who had been assaulted had failed to formally complain 12. FINAL PRESENATIONS a) APPLICANT Mr. Coen submitted that the premises are well run. Over the last 14/ 15 months there had been 4 / 5 the incidents which had been identified by the Police, but only two of those had occurred within the premises, through no fault of the licensee. No residents were present. Had they had concerns they would have made them known to the Police or Environment Health He suggested that Inspector Jolie may not have had an opportunity to speak to Sgt. Jones regarding his views on the proposed licensing hours and the applicant should not be prejudiced because Sgt. Jones was unaware of the discussion. He reiterated his points regarding the liberalisation of licensing hours which had been undertaken with a view to relieving trouble. He also submitted that current entertainment had not caused a problem such that the enlarged entertainment sought should be granted. He argued it was not possible to condition the behaviour of customers outside the premises and any conditions imposed should be proportionate and necessary. He explained that although CCTV was not necessarily a great deterrent there would be no difficulty in keeping the tapes as suggested by Sgt. Jones. 13. DETERMINATION OF APPLICATION The Chairman adjourned the proceedings and asked all to leave with the exception of Committee Members, Assistant County Secretary and the Clerk. 14. DECISION The Sub-Committee agreed that the Application be refused on the grounds that existing incidents of violence crime and disorder associated with the premises would be exacerbated by extending the hours and therefore contrary to the Crime & Disorder and Public Safety Licensing Objectives 15. REASONS i) The evidence had disclosed several of incidents of crime and disorder and threats to public safety which had occurred at different times throughout the existing permitted hours. Those incidents were such as to lead the Sub Committee to believe that the premises could not be operated in a way that would promote the Licensing Objectives within the current permitted hours and on the application before them they considered that any increase in those hours would be inappropriate in the light of the Licensing Objectives. Approved DateLicensing Sub Committee- 20.09.05 (Custom House) - 797 -
