Agenda, decisions and minutes

To receive any Declarations and advise Members accordingly.

            Councillor Copple declared a personal interest as a previous employee of Shell and received a pension contribution.

            Councillor Hodge declared a personal interest as a previous employee of BP and received a pension contribution.  

            The Chair advised that Councillors who were members of the Clwyd Pension Fund would have a personal interest which would be noted by Democratic Services.

            Councillor Copple declared a personal interest as a previous employee of Shell and received a pension contribution.

            Councillor Hodge declared a personal interest as a previous employee of BP and received a pension contribution.  

            The Chair advised that Councillors who were members of the Clwyd Pension Fund would have a personal interest which would be noted by Democratic Services.

To confirm as a correct record the minutes of the meeting held on 22 November 2022.

That the minutes be approved as a correct record and signed by the Chair.

The minutes of the meeting held on 22^nd November 2022 were moved by Councillor Mared Eastwood and seconded by Councillor Gillian Brockley as a correct record.

RESOLVED:

That the minutes be approved as a correct record and signed by the Chair.

To receive an update from the Programme Manager - Climate Change & Carbon Reduction.

That the update be noted.

The Programme Manager (Climate Change and Carbon Reduction) presented the report and provided a presentation which included detailed information on the following slides:-

·         Context – following Welsh Government declaring a Climate Emergency in 2019 Flintshire County Council committed to developing a Climate Change Strategy and becoming carbon neutral by to 2030

·         Achievements so far

·         Development of the Strategy – Baseline

·         Development of the Strategy – Engagement

·         The Strategy sets out to achieve net zero carbon

·         Climate Change Strategy

·         Action Plan to Net Zero Carbon

·         Current Staff Resource for Programme

·         Governance Structure

·         2021/22 Progress Report

·         Recommendations

·         Priorities for 2023/24

            The Cabinet Member congratulated the Programme Manager for the work she had undertaken.  The Committee needed to be mindful of the workload of the Programme Manager and her apprentice. 

In response to questions from Councillor Eastwood, the Programme Manager firstly confirmed that the increases in procurement was directly related to the increases in spend for 2021/22.  Referring to the net zero school, she provided an overview of the requirements which had been put in place when building the school to ensure that more accurate carbon figures were obtained and that these were the figures that would be reported rather than the spend value of the contract. 

In response to a question from Councillor Dan Rose, the Programme Manager explained the term “well to tank” referred to the emissions from the drilling and transportation of oil prior to it being sold at petrol stations.  Once the use of fossil fuels was reduced then the “well to tank” emissions would also reduce.

            The Chief Officer (Planning Environment & Economy) referred to Councillor Eastwood’s point on hydrogen fuel, saying that as part of the North Wales Economic Ambition Board a hydrogen production site was sourced on the Deeside Industrial Park, focussing on using hydrogen for vehicles.  Because of the number of businesses on the park there was a desire to switch with the focus on Green Hydrogen.  He explained if renewable energy was used to create the hydrogen, there was no bi-product of carbon dioxide, and he outlined the differences between blue and green hydrogen.   He suggested that this could be considered as an item on the Forward Work Programme.

            In response to the question from Councillor Copple on best practice, the Programme Manager confirmed that best practice was always sought, providing details of the organisations she was involved with where best practice examples were shared.  In addition, the Welsh Local Government Association (WLGA) were working to develop a procurement toolkit which all local authorities could use.  This would however require a dedicated officer to work with the commissioners and supply chain to gain a better understanding of what their carbon emissions were.

            In response to a question from Councillor Mansell, the Programme Manager confirmed the baseline figure for emissions was for 2018/19.  The 2019/20 data was pre-Covid.  The 2020/21 data showed reduced travel and office use during the pandemic. In 2021/22 coming out of the pandemic, data had seen some increase in emissions from the  ...  view the full minutes text for item 10.

To receive a Motion on the Carbon Footprint of Homeworking.

That the recommendations and minutes of the meeting to be forwarded to Cabinet.

The motion was proposed by the Chair and seconded by Councillor Brockley.

            Councillor Eastwood felt that there were several statements about what Flintshire County Council did or did not do but there was no report from officers to support it.  She felt that the Committee was being asked to make a recommendation on unsubstantiated statements without any knowledge of what the resources or cost implications were and therefore could not support the motion as she could not be confident that all the required information had been captured.

            Councillor Copple felt the Committee had a large workload and he was unsure how important this aspect was.   He felt home working had its advantages in relation to reduced carbon emissions but questioned if there were more important things the Committee should be focussed on.

            Councillor Marshall concurred with the comments made by Councillor Eastwood. 

            Councillor Rose said he had investigated how, as a lone home worker, this had impacted on his own carbon footprint.  He could not find any benefit for an individual working from home given the increased heating costs for a single person property against a multiple person property.  The only benefit being if another person was also working at home.  He explained that what was being suggested was obtaining more accurate information on the home working policies and writing to Welsh Government (WG).  He was happy to support those requests as it required clarification and was something that this Committee could suggest was actioned to ensure that the correct figures on regards carbon footprints were reported.

            The Chief Officer commented on recommendation 3 and said the modern office at Ty Dewi Sant in Ewloe was not designed for all the workforce to return.  There was not enough capacity but it could hold 70% of the workforce.   He explained that the Hybrid Working Policy required managers to strike a balance between the business need and the needs of the person working from home.  He accepted that the carbon footprint of home working and hybrid working was important but it was more complex to manage with the carbon footprint being not the only element.  He suggested the Committee consider the most recent Hybrid Working Policy and agreed to share this with Members.

            Councillor Mansell had that concerns that offices were being heated with only a few people in them.

            Councillor Eastwood clarified her concerns on the motion but added that she was happy to support the item being placed on the Forward Work Programme. 

            Councillor Rose explained that the motion was not suggesting a change to the Hybrid Working Policy but was to ensure the data was accurate within the Policy.  He said that if a survey was carried out with staff to glean the required information, then that would be sufficient for this purpose.

            The Programme Manager referred to the recommendations saying that currently the impact on carbon emissions both travelling to and from work and working from home were not detailed in the Hybrid Working Policy.  A balance of  ...  view the full minutes text for item 11.

To receive a Motion on Print free Council

That the recommendations and minutes of the meeting to be forwarded to Cabinet

            The Chair invited Councillor Rose as proposer of this motion to speak.   Councillor Rose thanked the IT Infrastructure Manager for the information he had provided which helped identify the 4.9m pages which had been printed by the Council in 2022.  He had not asked for the number of letters sent but the revision on what was printed which would impact the fiscal costs for paper income and postage also.  He said a 10g letter sent was responsible for 280g of carbon if the receiver recycled it and provided an example of an unnecessary letter recently sent to all Members.  There were 70 xerox printers within the Council which were currently up for review and he wanted to ensure that a reduction in the carbon footprint was considered within this review and not just the cost basis.

            The Cabinet Member referred to the exceptions for printing and felt more could be included.  He referred to a body which promoted tourism within Flintshire and advocated the leaflets they printed which highlighted the heritage aspects within Flintshire which could be placed in areas outside of the county to attract tourism. 

            Councillor Eastwood would have welcomed an officer report on this to understand how much paper was used, the electrical input used and answer questions on why xerox were used over inkjet printers.  An update from HR on the transition to a paperless Council would also have been useful.  She was supportive in general moving towards a paperless Council wherever possible but was concerned that some areas may have not been included.  She asked if the motion could include which printers were used in procurement and in house and referred to the Climate Change Strategy Action Plan item CCBe4 on the volume of paper used in printing services.

            Councillor Attridge, in attendance as an observer, concurred with the views of Councillor Eastwood saying that the lack of detail and officer involvement did not enable a debate on this.

            The Chair then provided information on the process of motions and how they were moved by Councillors.  Officers were able to provide advice before a decision was made in writing or in person at meetings.   He reiterated that this Committee did not have decision making powers on making recommendations or suggestions to Cabinet, for example, where more officer involvement would be provided.

            Councillor Marshall sought clarification on the energy consumption figures asking if they were based on fossil fuels and asked if solar panels were used to generate the electricity would this mean they did not generate carbon.   He then referred to the recent Council meeting where notices of motions were read from sheets of paper.  This did not fit into the restrictive category within the motion and asked if this should be expanded to included sheets used in the Council meetings. 

            Councillor Rose said this was looking at the Council’s activities and said that having something printed for an individual which was necessary for a meeting was different to the Council sending paper out which  ...  view the full minutes text for item 12.

To receive a Motion on Columbaria in Flintshire managed cemeteries – Environmentally friendly bereavement services

That recommendations and minutes of the meeting to be forwarded to Cabinet.

The Chair invited Councillor Swash as mover of this motion to speak.  

            Councillor Swash explained that, whilst this motion was specifically concerning Columbaria, the issue of dealing with human remains was a pressing one.  Traditional burials were an inefficient way of storing human remains, with built up urban communities experiencing problems for a long time and that this was now beginning to affect Flintshire. 

The motion outlined several potential benefits with using Columbaria at Flintshire managed cemeteries and he focussed on the environmental benefits which was critical because of the lack of burial spaces at our popular cemeteries.  The burial of human remains was carbon intensive and took up vast sways of green space which could be better utilised.  He outlined the types of land which would be unsuitable to be used for burials saying as Columbaria was an above ground piece of architecture which used less space it was more versatile in terms of the land upon which it could be built. 

Land used for traditional burials could not be utilised for other purposes in the long term as very few developers were interested in building on land made up of human remains.  When land was allocated for potential cemeteries, it had to be understood that it was unlikely to be used for anything else.  The costs of maintaining cemeteries were high with many older cemeteries left in a state of disrepair with volunteers looking after them.  Columbaria were already present in many cemeteries in the UK, and he provided information on the popular site in Northwich, extending the life of that cemetery.  Referring to Resomation he said it was a different way of dealing with human remains and was included for the Environment & Economy Overview & Scrutiny Committee and Cabinet to explore its potential as a longer-term option.

            This was seconded by Councillor Rose who said land use was an important part of the Committee’s work and this motion focused on land use and space taken up.  Burial grounds could be required for building as there was a shortage of land which would be needed for the future.  He was pleased that Resomation could be considered as an option and that Flintshire now had the option of woodland burials.  Providing more options to people was not only better for them but also for land use and the environment.

            Councillor Eastwood sought clarification on where the information on the shortage of space in cemeteries had been obtained, where was the officer report and who could she ask questions to.  In relation to Columbaria, she asked what the costs and resources implications were and asked if there was a demand for this in Flintshire in comparison with other local authorities.  Referring to woodland burials she asked how this impacted on biodiversity within those woodland and meadow lands.  She appreciated the amount of work Councillor Swash had put into the motion but felt officer representatives should be available to answer questions.

            The Programme Manager explained that Flintshire’s Bereavement Team regularly monitored the  ...  view the full minutes text for item 13.

To receive a Motion on Flood Resilience Adaptation.

That the Chair of the Committee progress the recommendations above.

            The Chair proposed this motion and said that no recommendations would be made on this item.  This was for the Committee to undertake work to investigate future flooding issues that the County currently experienced and may face in the future because of climate change. 

            There was a range of flooding issues with some being the responsibility of local authorities, Natural Resources Wales, water and sewerage authorities and other agencies.  There was a mixture of responsibilities concerning the upkeep of drainage channels and culverts etc.  The situation was complex and it was not always the responsibility of the Council to prevent flooding as a lot of the infrastructure required was the responsibility of other agencies under Welsh Government (WG).  

The Council was able to look at the whole issue to identify where the failings and concerns were.  It was difficult to predict where surface water and flooding would occur, with some areas experiencing it on a regular basis and others unexpectedly.  This could be dealt with when it happened, or the Council could look at it to map out where the risks were and what action was needed to prevent flooding.  

Within the Council’s budget there was no room for massive infrastructure projects and if communities were going to be protected from flooding, then investment from WG and UK Government was required.  It was a complicated issue, and the motion was to set up an inquiry where the Committee would hear detailed evidence from Flintshire Officers, Natural Resources Wales and other interested parties.  The Committee could look at the issue in detail and make some representations based on the information received.  The Chair said the motion was to set up the inquiry and no substantive recommendations would be proposed.  He commended the Council for the work it had undertaken dealing with the recent flooding and long running issues at Sandycroft, Mancot and Pentre areas and referred to the difficulties encountered by Natural Resources Wales around funding.  This area had particular challenges and could be a good case study.

            This was seconded by Councillor Copple who felt flooding was getting worse and needed to be assessed and measures put in place for the longer term.

            Councillor Eastwood asked if this duplicated the work undertaken in CCBu7  “to continue to carry out flood investigation and the number of flooding incidents prevented Flood Risk Planning”.  She also asked what would happen if no response was received from Natural Resources Wales and Welsh Water in time.  She felt that she did not have sufficient skills to analyse an inquiry held by this Committee and would prefer an update from officers on what was already happening.

            The Chief Officer confirmed that a lot of information was already available and that this was focussing on the Sandycroft incident which was ongoing.   It was a complex issue involving a number of different partners.   He referred to the resources that would be required to support this motion and said that it was not possible to hold a public inquiry  ...  view the full minutes text for item 14.

To receive a Motion on Clwyd Pension Fund Dinvestment – 1.

That the Chair of the Committee progress the recommendations above.

            The Chair explained that this was brought to the last meeting but was not progressed.  The purpose of the motion was to gather evidence and propose actions in light of expert advice.  He referred to the comments made by the Programme Manager on public sector targets for net zero by 2030 in Wales which applied to all areas of the Council apart from the Clwyd Pension Fund which had no target at all.  

Welsh Government (WG) were looking to bring Local Authority Pension Funds in line with the public sector and he thanked Jack Sargeant MS for his work in this area.  The Chair reported on the investments held by the Pension Fund which had a duty to manage those investments for its members.   He felt that the 2045 target set by the Clwyd Pension Fund was out of line with the rest of the public sector.  There could be good arguments for this as it was a complex issue, and it was therefore necessary to seek expert advice.   The motion was to ensure that this was received, and that the Committee was able to make suggestions to the Council as employers in relation to the Clwyd Pension Fund.

            Councillor Rose commented that there was a lot of money and carbon involved and felt the Committee could me some suggestions to ensure it came in line with the public sector targets.

            Councillor Hodge felt that, although he had doubts about the legality of looking at this, he was reassured that the investigation was regarding fossil fuels.  He said that one of the reasons fossil fuel companies still produced it was because cars, heaters and boilers still used it and asked who was spending money to make us green.  He said BP and Cemex owned Halkyn Quarry and were working to develop solutions to decarbonise the cement production process.  BP had announced a 45% stake to project and lead the largest green hydrogen energy hub based in Australia and had also announced the green hydrogen production in Spain, Portugal and the UK.  They had improved EV batteries for cars with Castrol and had just delivered the first solar project in India which included 200,000 solar panels.  He welcomed that the Committee look into companies where investments were made by the Pension Fund but reiterated that companies such as BP and Shell still provided oil and gas because the demand was there, but they were also investing heavily in green alternatives to fossil fuels.

            Councillor Shallcross reported that as a member of the Clwyd Pension Fund Committee he was confident in the work being undertaken by the officers to ensure that companies moved to greener energies.  He felt it was in the company’s best interests to become greener to survive but they needed a period of transition. 

            Councillor Gee reported on a recent news item “makemymoneymatter.co.uk/green my pension” which highlighted the best way to cut an individual’s carbon emissions to make their pension green.  

            Councillor Coggins Coggin understood that the Motion was  ...  view the full minutes text for item 15.

To agree on areas for review within the Climate Change Programme.

That the areas for review within the Climate Change Programme be agreed.

            The Chair commented that this was on the Forward Work Programme for review at a later meeting.  The Chair asked if any Members had any items that they would like more detail on and receive specialist advice on which could be included on the Climate Change Programme Review.

            The Programme Manager felt the presentation provided a fair overview of areas that required development and hoped that Members of the Committee had digested the Climate Change Strategy and Action Plan and identified areas that needed particular attention.  She was open to hear any suggestions.

            Councillor Mansell asked if workshops would be considered for any suggestions put forward.  In response the Programme Manager confirmed workshops had been provided prior to the Strategy being developed but none had taken place since it was approved.  She felt if there were topics from Members which would benefit from a workshop, she would be happy to do that depending on capacity.  

            Councillor Shallcross commented that this was a new Committee and could benefit from assistance to manage expectations.  Climate change was one of the biggest subjects affecting the world and the Committee needed to understand what could be achieved.  The motions presented were done so with the best intentions but could involve a tremendous amount of work to potentially get nothing in return.   The Committee needed to be led and guided in a direction where it could make a difference.  A workshop may be useful to ensure all Members of the Committee had the correct understanding of what was required.

            The Programme Manager referred to the part of the recommendation to Cabinet which was that priority be given to elected Members and senior officers to carry out carbon literacy training which would link directly to the Climate Change Strategy.  This would hopefully provide the information and understanding required to properly inform decisions.

RESOLVED:

That the areas for review within the Climate Change Programme be agreed.

To consider the Forward Work Programme and inform the Committee of progress against actions from previous meetings.

(a)          That the Forward Work Programme be approved;

(b)       That the Programme Manager liaise with the Chair and Vice-Chair following the meeting to discuss the Forward Work Programme; and

(c)       That consideration be given at the meeting in March whether to broaden the item on alternative renewable energy generation.

            The Chair referred to the Forward Work Programme which included items for the next three meetings before the summer.  The July meeting allowed for other items suggested by Members to be included.   The Programme Manager confirmed that Hydrogen was included for the March meeting and could be broadened to include the comments made by Councillor Eastwood which was agreed.

            Councillor Coggins Cogan said he owned an electric vehicle and following a trip to Scotland, he explained that the Scottish Government had, to assist with tourism, ensure that there was an excellent charging network.  He felt there was scope for Flintshire which could maybe be used for tourism as the Gateway to Wales similar to what Denbighshire were doing with their EV station called the Gateway to Snowdonia. 

            Councillor Marshall asked if ground source or bore hole heat pumps extracting heat from large former coal areas which had tunnels full of warm water could be considered.  The Programme Manager confirmed the Council had been installing heat pumps in some domestic properties and some schools. There was an item on the Forward Work Programme for the meeting May to look at alternative renewable energy generation opportunities and that could be broadened to include renewable heat options.  The Chair asked if what Councillor Marshall was proposing would be for private sector investment.  The Programme Manager said she would look into it provide a response.  The Chair suggested that it be provisionally broadened to include it for May with a decision being taken on whether to broaden the item at the meeting in March.

On being put to the vote the Forward Work Programme was carried.

RESOLVED:

(a)          That the Forward Work Programme be approved;

(b)       That the Programme Manager liaise with the Chair and Vice-Chair following the meeting to discuss the Forward Work Programme; and

(c)       That consideration be given at the meeting in March whether to broaden the item on alternative renewable energy generation.

Future meetings of the Climate Change Committee will take place at 2.00 pm on:

Tuesday 28 March 2023

Tuesday 23 May 2023

Tuesday 18 July 2023

Future meeting dates of the Climate Change Committee had been scheduled to take place at 2.00 pm on:

Tuesday 28 March 2023

Tuesday 23 May 2023

Tuesday 18 July 2023

Future meeting dates of the Climate Change Committee had been scheduled to take place at 2.00 pm on:

Tuesday 28 March 2023

Tuesday 23 May 2023

Tuesday 18 July 2023

There were no Members of the press or public in attendance.

The meeting started at 2.00pm and finished at 4.46pm

……………………………………..

Chairman