Agenda item

(a)       That the Committee supports the four objectives set out in the North Wales Fire & Rescue Authority consultation document; and

(b)       That the Member Engagement Manager be authorised to respond to the consultation accordingly. 

The Member Engagement Manager introduced Councillor Peter Lewis (Deputy Chair), Simon Smith (Chief Fire Officer) and Ruth Simmons (Assistant Chief Fire Officer) from the North Wales Fire & Rescue Authority.

                        Mr. Smith explained that instead of a powerpoint presentation, a short video had been prepared, which was played for the Committee, to provide information on the issues that the Authority was consulting on.  The proposed objectives from the video were:-

·         Objective 1 – Keep people and communities safe by preventing deaths and injuries from accidental fires in living accommodation

·         Objective 2 – develop a three year financial strategy in which freezing the budget will be a central principle

·         Objective 3 - rebalance our resources to match risk

·         Objective 4 – we will explore opportunities to diversify and offer additional services to the public of North Wales

In providing background to the consultation, Mr. Smith said that in 2006/07, more than ten people died in fires in domestic dwellings and in 2014/15 there had only been two fatalities, both of whom were at the same incident.  In October 2006, North Wales had been at the bottom of a league table and was the least safest place to live in but since then, there had been a shift over the last ten years to put resources into the prevention of fires, and as a result the number of fire calls had reduced by 50%.  Mr. Smith advised that prevention did work but cost money and both National Government and Welsh Government had commented that there was 50% less demand but the service had the same resources as ten years ago.  He commented on a pilot project through the National Joint Council for the Fire & Rescue Service to co-respond to certain categories of incident alongside the Ambulance Service and the pilot scheme was due to commence in December 2015.      

The Chairman thanked Mr. Smith for the presentation.

Councillor Paul Shotton spoke of the admiration of the public for the Fire Service in North Wales.  He spoke of the concern of a suggestion by National Government that the Police & Crime Commissioners in England take over the Fire & Rescue Service, which he hoped would not be replicated in Wales.  Councillor Shotton spoke of the issue of flooding and commented on ways to expand the service and the importance of fire prevention.  He felt that £46 per resident for the service was good value.  He welcomed the suggestion to freeze the budget for three years but queried whether recruitment was an area of concern.  He also welcomed the proposals for certain number of ‘crewing groups’ depending on times of lower or higher risk and felt that this would be an improvement.  Councillor Shotton also looked forward to the official opening of the new fire station in Deeside. 

In response, Mr. Smith explained that it had been suggested that the Police & Crime Commissioners in England take over the governance of the Fire & Rescue Authority and in Wales, it would be for the Welsh Government Ministers to decide if this was pursued.  On the issue of flooding, there had been some significant and damaging floods in the area but, he emphasised the Fire & Rescue Authority did not have a statutory duty to respond to flooding events but had always done so in the past.  It was important to note that the Authority could not prioritise non-statutory events over statutory issues and therefore responding to incidents of flooding was an area that was vulnerable to cuts.  In 2014, the Service removed two services (line rescue and large animal rescue) as they were non-statutory but had decided to continue with responding to flooding events for the time being, even though this was also non-statutory.  In referring to the proposed budget freeze, Mr. Smith explained that the service had reached the point where it was looking to take the reserves to a minimum to fund the budget pressures and once the reserves had been used, there would be a need to consider service reduction which would include firefighters and fire engines.  The new fire station at Deeside had been completed and was officially due to be opened in the New Year but was already fully operational.  It was a magnificent building which had been built to a high standard and also included a community facility. 

Councillor Richard Jones referred to the presentation by the Fire & Rescue Authority to the Council in November 2014 where three options had been presented (1 - to freeze the budget, 2 – a reduction in the annual budget at a level similar to the reductions being felt by the constituent councils themselves, 3 – a gradual increase in the Authority’s budget to protect services); option 3 was preferred by the Councillors.  He had suggested an amendment to include the Authority being open to financial scrutiny and challenge towards maximising ‘Value for Money’ and reduction of overhead costs whilst providing the same or better level of protection to the residents of Flintshire.  Councillor Jones sought clarification that assurance could be given that residents would be protected in the same way as in 2014, the Fire Authority had indicated that it would cost an extra £4 per head to fund the service.  In response, Mr. Smith said that the objective had been to increase the contribution to a maximum equivalent of £1 per head of population per year.  The consultation exercise covered all six North Wales Local Authorities but the view of Flintshire County Council was not shared by the other five Councils and the views of all six had to be taken into consideration.  The Fire Service strategy recognised that budget pressures were much worse than anticipated and concluded that it was not sustainable to use reserves and increase budgets year on year when Local Authorities were facing severe cuts.  Mr. Smith confirmed that the level of service would not be reduced as a result of the proposals but talked of significant cuts in funding of 25% for Fire Authorities in England. 

Councillor Jones suggested that residents in Flintshire were prepared to pay an increase of £1 to protect the Fire Service and to ensure they were safe in their homes.  Mr. Smith said that he had heard similar remarks but reiterated his earlier comment that the views of Flintshire County Council were not shared by the other North Wales Local Authorities.   

In his role as the Clerk to the North Wales Fire & Rescue Authority, the Chief Executive commented on the longterm change programme proposals that were required to decrease the pressure on a rising budget.  He added that the views of the six North Wales Authorities needed to be considered and that because of a static or reducing government grant, any increases would be likely to fall on local authorities to fund and would therefore become a budget pressure.  The Medium Term Financial Strategy assumed no increases in future levies that had not already been identified. 

Councillor Peter Lewis confirmed that even though Flintshire County Council were receptive to a £1 increase, some of the North Wales Authorities disagreed.  He referred to the combination of statutory and non-statutory duties carried out by the Fire & Rescue Service and the best ways to utilise the available resources.  It had been suggested that reserves should be reduced but North Wales already had the lowest reserves for a Fire Authority and once they had been utilised, they could not be replaced. 

In response to a query from Councillor Andy Dunbobbin about the role of the retained firefighter, Mr. Smith explained that they would usually have another full time job but would be paid a retainer and would be required to undertake a number of hours training and attend the fire station in the event of an incident.  He provided details of the two levels of remuneration for retained firefighters and spoke of the difficulty in recruiting and retention.  A lengthy recruitment campaign had been undertaken recently in which 54 positions had been filled but the Service had been hoping to recruit 80 personnel.  Councillor Dunbobbin also asked whether the use of army barracks had been considered and the Chief Executive responded that previous arrangements where the Armed Forces provided secondary cover for the Fire Service no longer existed. 

Councillor Arnold Woolley congratulated the representatives of the Fire Authority for the simple, concise and clear consultation document which he confirmed he had completed.  He queried whether the distance that Flintshire residents had to travel to their place of work had an impact on the recruitment of retained firefighters.  Mr. Smith explained that there was a requirement that retained firefighters had to live within five minutes of the fire station to ensure that they could reach the station as soon as possible following a callout.  However, he added that Flintshire was not generally a problem recruitment area.  Councillor Woolley also asked about any specialist training for setting off or handling fireworks that firefighters received and was advised by Mr. Smith that they did not receive any specialist training.  If the Fire Service were involved with a firework display, it encouraged the public to attend rather than have their own event and any proceeds from the Fire Service display were shared between local charities. 

Councillor Paul Shotton spoke of the proposed ‘crewing group’ arrangements and queried whether those leaving the Armed Forces were adequately informed of any vacancies within the Fire Service.  In response, Mr. Smith explained about the use of a ‘Wholetime Duty System (WDS) – Rural’ which were firefighters who were available to be allocated to any fire station when needed to make up a crew.  Since the introduction of the system, an average of approximately 14 extra fire engines had been available each day but the WDS firefighters were expensive as they were paid at full time rates. 

On the issue of those leaving the Armed Forces, Mrs. Ruth Simmons commented on the fixed term recruitment processes for both full and retained firefighters rather than an ‘open’ employment exercise which was not effective.  The general public and employers were notified of any vacancies.  There were benefits in attracting ex-military personnel but there could also be concerns due to the potential for psychological issues due to active service. 

In response to a query from Councillor Jones, Mr. Smith reiterated his earlier comments that the service to recover large animals had been withdrawn to save costs and any requests to assist would be referred to the Royal Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals.  Another initiative to reduce costs was to only send a fire engine to an alert from an automated fire alarm system if this was backed up by a 999 call that there was a fire.  This had been in place for six months and there had been virtually no risk to the public or businesses and had reduced costs and increased efficiencies. 

            Councillor Robin Guest asked about the cost of attending for incidents of flooding.  Mr. Smith responded that he did not have the details with him but the amount would be significant and the damage to fire engines could also be a contributing factor.  He commented on the damage to vehicles sustained as a result of the St. Asaph floods but the Fire Authority was not able to apply for assistance from the Government to undertake the repairs. 

            Councillor Marion Bateman thanked Mr. Smith for his presentation and the openness of his answers to questions from Members.                                      

            RESOLVED:

(a)       That the Committee supports the four objectives set out in the North Wales Fire & Rescue Authority consultation document; and

(b)       That the Member Engagement Manager be authorised to respond to the consultation accordingly.